Honeymoons Are a Demon

Why do marriages fall apart a few years in? Why does the intensity and emotion of following Jesus become mundane and struggle after a couple years? Where did the boredom of the “dream job” come from before the first quarter is done?

The honeymoon is over.

When you get married the honeymoon is a time of tremendous intensity, love, and infatuation. You are wholly focused on another human destined to spend the rest of life with, “till death do you part.” At least that’s the way it’s supposed to be.

But, the feelings, emotions, and newness of marriage wear off and you are stuck with a fellow homo-sapien filled with faults, quirks, and inconsistencies. This is when people begin to bail on the marriage, often commit adultery, or become angry. Why?

The honeymoon is over.

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In Love with Love

The problem with honeymoons is they are a false read on reality. You get the sense that everything is perfect and this relationships, job, and church, will be intensely wonderful for the next fifty years. But, it does not turn out that way. Intensity wanes, emotions run low, and the mundane becomes the new normal. Why?

A Catholic spiritual writer Ronald Rolheiser believes, the honeymoon phase in different seasons of life, is a vital part of discipleship in Christ. The mature disciple must learn to navigate the mundane, boredom, and regular-ness of life, when the honeymoon is over. 

The problem with honeymoons is “we fall in love with love.” In the beginning of a marriage it’s the feeling of intense love we enjoy. The nearness and closeness. It is the newness and intensity and experience that is intoxicating. 

At the beginning of a marriage no one thinks these feelings will ever subside. The next fifty years will be the equivalent of long walks on the beach and all the bacon you can eat (that is how I envision it). 

During the honeymoon phase, it is not the person you love, it is not the work that is enjoyable, it is not the community of faith that is spiritually nourishing. In the beginning, it is the newness and intoxicating emotional high’s we love. In reality, “we are in love with love.” 

Honeymoons Are NOT Reality

Sadly, honeymoons create a pseudo-reality. We know deep down nothing lasts forever and we know these feelings will rise and fall. But, we crave it, we want it back, we need to rekindle what was lost. We need another hit of honeymoon bliss. 

For the maturing disciple of Christ, we must get beyond the honeymoon phase to find true joy and depth. 

Rolheiser comments on the dangers of trying to recapture honeymoons:

“Their first warning concerns the danger of reverting to immaturity because of the longing for another honeymoon. Our route to maturity generally involves a honeymoon or two. Honeymoons are real, are powerful, and afford us this side of eternity, with one of the better foretastes of heaven. Because of that, they are not easy to let go of permanently. Inside of everyone of us there is the lingering itch to experience the kind of intensity yet one more time, and that itch is made stronger by the fact that our commitments, including our marriage, can often feel bland and flat when measured against the intensity of the honeymoon. One of the demons we must wrestle with after we have made a lifelong commitment is the powerful temptation to experience yet another honeymoon. Infidelity in marriage is often triggered by this temptation” Sacred Fire (pp. 69-70). 

The Honeymoon Demon

The “demon” of honeymoons can apply to most of life. Marriages fail and adultery happens because of trying to recapture the honeymoon. Job hopping, church hopping, and relationship hopping happens, because we are trying to recapture the intensity and high of the honeymoon. 

We know honeymoon’s are wonderful… but don’t last. All is not lost.

Deep intimacy with a spouse happens when you no longer are in “love with love.” You begin to love the person with all their sin, warts, and faults. You begin to navigate true intimacy when feelings are not as heightened. Feelings are not unimportant, but don’t become the barometer, for which everything hinges. You serve, cherish, and encourage your spouse, for the sake of Christ, and a genuine love for the person, not the sake of feelings or lack thereof. 

When you see the underbelly of the local church and realize it’s not perfect because you are there. You stick it out. You find greater intimacy and fellowship with Christ when you cling to him and walk humbly with others. Knowing relationships are hard, doubt is real, but the honeymoon is a liar. 

In the marketplace the work takes on new meaning when we stop clinging to the honeymoon. We realize bosses can be jerks, people are people, and not all work is creative, enjoyable, and satisfying. The honeymoon is a demon that can tempt us to cut corners, give half effort, live for the weekend, and look for the next thing. Which is just looking for another honeymoon.

If we allow the honeymoon-demon to creep in we can’t be present with God, people, work, and the ones we love. Honeymoons are great. Honeymoons are a gift from God. But honeymoons don’t last.

Acknowledge It... Don't Live There

Acknowledge the honeymoon. Acknowledge the waning intensity. And, ask God to give faith, strength,  and maturity, to live in the midst of the mundane, ordinary, and regular-ness of life.

Where have you seen the honeymoon demon in your life?

 

 

6 Lessons Learned in Church Planting

In a couple weeks our church celebrates six years of existence. It feels like yesterday when my family packed up and moved to urban Kansas City to start a new church. The last seven years we’ve experienced high’s of high’s and low’s of low’s planting a new ministry. But, through it all, God has been gracious and faithful at every turn.

So, to celebrate six years of church planting let me share a couple lessons learned:

#1 Christ first, family second, ministry third… in that order.

Planting a new church from scratch is a daunting task. There are no people, little money, a vision of “what could be,” and lots of praying. It can feel like an all consuming endeavor. 
Church planting is lonely, and physically, emotionally, and spiritually draining. People will betray you, leave you, and hurt you. Relationships will shatter, money will run out, and things never seem to grow fast enough. 

If not careful, church planting can become a terrible god and mistress. Christ becomes second fiddle to our ministry dreams and aspirations. 

So what to do?

First, keep God center of our affections. Second, love, serve, and be present to your family, and let ministry flow from here. 

Christ is why we plant churches. He planted his love in our hearts (Rom. 5:5). We plant because we are his children. We plant because we want people to know this love. At least that is how it’s supposed to be.

Family is our “first church.” We can’t give the family leftovers in the name of Christ. We are to be examples to the flock, and examples of how to lead a family, if we are going to lead a church (1 Peter 5:3, 1 Tim. 3:1-7).

Unfortunately, we confuse our roles as disciples and pastors/planters believing they are the same thing. What will sustain your ministry and life is knowing Christ, caring for your family, and of course, serving God’s people… in that order. 

#2 Be patient

Most church planters are entrepreneurially bent. That means they lack patience on all levels. We want growth, success, and movement yesterday. But, when dealing with the souls of people it requires patience and long-suffering. People are fragile and sanctification is slow. We should know this from personal experience (being a human, weak, fragile, and slow to grow in holiness), but it can be easily forgotten.

I’ve found that my impatience can lead to overlooking people and simply wanting to move to the next thing. The people we are called to serve become a roadblock instead of souls to nurture into maturity. 

Be patient with your congregation. Be patient with your leaders. Be patient with your neighbors. Be patient with the Lord as he works sovereignly through his church. I think of Paul’s words in Romans about patience:

 “24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience” Romans 8:24-25.

If we have a hope of salvation and world transformation. We can be patient with the people God has entrusted us with. 

#3 Church planting is not sexy

Church planting has become the new cool thing among evangelicals. Every hipster Christian with tattoos and an ESV lambskin Bible wants to plant a church in a variety of cool cities in America. 

But, don’t start a church because it looks cool and is considered the new sexy thing. Do it because you want to honor Christ. Do it to make disciples and see communities transformed. The sexiness will wear off in a couple years and you are left with little sexy and a lot of work. 

Many young church planters assume that church planting will protect them from cranky church members and dusty traditions. Not the case. People will come into your church just as cranky, just as weird, and just as traditional.

Others get into church planting because of not wanting to serve in established churches or having to submit to denominational and/or network authorities. Established and new churches are not enemies. They need each other. Both can learn from one another. Don’t get into church planting because of authority and daddy issues. You need accountability on multiple levels. 

Church planting is not sexy. It is hard. Can ruin a marriage in a blink of an eye. It is financially taxing. It is messy because people are messy. Careful of romanticizing the nature of this kind of ministry. 

#4 Be yourself

I think because of the advent of the Internet and the accessibility of social media and other media outlets we have a lot of “wannabe pastors” simply mimicking their favorite preachers. 
Be yourself.

If you try to be like your favorite pastor/church planter you will just look dumb. Be the best you. I think until you know yourself well, your weaknesses, sinful tendencies, leadership style, and personality, you will not do well in church planting. Be secure in Jesus.

People can spot a phony a mile away. Celebrate how God has made you, wired you, and gifted you. Be okay with you.

And, be careful of the comparison game. Too many young planters compare their success to the happening megachurch pastor of the day. They are not the standard. Be faithful and fruitful in what God called you to do. 

#5 Preach and teach the Bible

Church planters live under pressure to be marketers, social media savvy, and relevant (whatever that means in the moment). But, one non-negotiable, is to build your life and ministry on the Bible.

Preach the gospel, teach the Word, saturate your heart and mind in the Holy Book. The Bible will always be relevant in every generation because has not changed. You need the Bible for personal vitality and you need the Bible for the spiritual vitality and renewal of the church. 

Talk about the Bible in staff meetings, discuss it in groups, apply it in homes, let the Word of God saturate every aspect of ministry. 

#6 Take God seriously, but not yourself

Church planting is hard. The honeymoon will be over, and ministry will feel like work, and joy hard to find. But, learn to laugh at yourself. Know that God saves sinners and weak people like us. He delights to use the weak and crooked sticks of the world to bring him glory. 

Make sure to laugh. You are not the savior and answer for your city. Jesus is. Your life is a shadow, blink, and vapor. Play your part well. Make sure to laugh, didn’t I just say this…

Laughter is important. I remember a time early on in planting when I didn’t laugh. I was so caught up in the work of ministry that I forgot how to slow down and see the grace, awe, wonder, and humor of life. I needed to laugh. I needed to laugh because of how gracious Jesus is, and now lame I can be. 

I need to laugh that God would call me into this racket called church planting. I don’t know much. But, this is what I am learning thus far…
 

A New Metric for Ministry Success

When I attend a pastor’s conference a common question is often asked: “How many you running?” In other words, how many people come to worship services on Sunday?

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This is not a bad question. It’s not a question to be ignored if you care about multiplying disciples and seeing communities transformed by the gospel. But, is it an ultimate question? Is it the right question when considering the success and effectiveness of your ministry? Is it a question we should lose sleep over?

What is Ministry Success?

The challenge for ministry/church leaders is to determine success and effectiveness. We don’t want to flounder around aimlessly hoping for good results. Jesus desires the people of God and his church bear spiritual fruit (John 15: 1-11). But, are the metrics we typically use actual spiritual fruit? Is church attendance the same as spiritual fruit? Jesus attracted many crowds and most did not follow Him. 

Is the urban pastor struggling to pay the bills, and meet budget, considered a failure? Is he not bearing spiritual fruit? Jesus never had a budget and died homeless in a borrowed tomb. Was Jesus a pastoral failure? 

What about the country church pastor who only has thirty people on a “big” Sunday? Is he incompetent? Does he need a more robust prayer life? Jesus left the earth with only one hundred and twenty followers. You’d think Jesus, of all people, would be the prototypical mega church pastor? He is the Son of God after all…

Why these metrics for ministry success? Do these capture the biblical ethos and precedent for true spiritual fruit in life and ministry? Is it even possible to measure spiritual and supernatural realities of the universe?

I think so. 
But, it might not be what you’d expect…

I don’t think most pastors believe the only true metric of ministry success are the three B’s: bodies, budgets, and buildings. But, many leaders aren’t sure what to measure. And sadly,  our self worth, identity, and joy, are often predicated on how many people come on Sunday, how much money is in the bank, and if our facilities are sufficient for growth and reaching the community with the gospel. 

Is there a better metric for ministry success, effectiveness, and spiritual fruit? 
I think so.
Joy.

Enter. Joy.

Yes, I did say, “joy.” What if a better metric for spiritual fruit is not if we are making budget, but rather, if people in our churches and communities are filled with joy? 

Not a superficial, happy-clappy, shallow joy rising and falling with the next cultural fad or experience. I am talking about a Spirit-filled and blood-bought joy secured in Christ Jesus. The kind of joy that comes to people and cities when they respond to the gospel of Christ.

A City of Joy

In Acts, Phillip is called to preach the gospel in Samaria. A city that is historically shunned by “pure Jews” because Samaritans are Jews who married non-Jews. Samaritans and Jews did not get along to put it mildly. 

“4 Now those who were scattered went about preaching the word. 5 Philip went down to the city of Samaria and proclaimed to them the Christ. 6 And the crowds with one accord paid attention to what was being said by Philip when they heard him and saw the signs that he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying out with a loud voice, came out of many who had them, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. 8 So there was much joy in that city” Acts 8:4-8

Here is a city that is religiously confused because of the historical backdrop of the people. Samaritans engaged in a hybrid Jewish faith following the Old Testament Scriptures while tweaking it to meet their religious needs. But, this does not stop the power of the gospel.

The people are drawn to the “Word” and the “Christ” that Philipp preaches. This was not a faith they had ever heard in this first generation missionary context. But, here are the people responding to the gospel and Word of God. 

Did you notice what happened to the city?
 

“So there was much joy in that city” (verse 8). 

Joy is Not Optional for the Christian

When the gospel of Christ comes to a people the result is joy. Not a joy that can be manufactured and manipulated. It is a joy that comes from the Spirit of God in salvation. What the Bible calls, “the fruit of the Spirit”(Gal. 5:22-23). 

Joy is produced by the inner transforming work of the Spirit to make us new people. A people of love, joy, peace, kindness, self control… This “spiritual fruit” is not a natural occurrence because we know the the human heart is not self controlled, patient, loving, kind, and joyful. Because of an inborn sinful DNA we need supernatural assistance to live as new creations.

Why is joy a fruit of the Spirit’s work?

Joy comes to people and cities when they know their greatest enemies of sin, death, hell, and Satan, have been conquered by the death and resurrection of Christ. Joy is birthed when people find a greater lasting pleasure and treasure in Christ. When they see sin fleeting and cultural fads unsatisfying. When joy is coming alive we know Christ and his Kingdom are greater than anything in life:

“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field” Matthew 13:44.

I want to see our ministry metrics change. I don’t care if you have a million people in your services every Sunday. Are your people happy in God? Can they say with Nehemiah: “the joy of the Lord is my strength” (Nehemiah 8:10). 

Maybe we need to pray and consider how happy our cities are in Jesus? Are they pursuing joys apart from Christ? Are the people in my church progressively finding lasting joy in Jesus? If not, why not?

Wherever the gospel is preached, responded to, embraced, and applied, joy is the result.
How’s your joy in Jesus? Are the people in your church genuinely happy in God? Maybe we need a different measuring stick for ministry success.

What do you think?

3 Phases of Christian Discipleship

In the process of Christian discipleship there’s an important reality often neglected. These realities are obvious, yet, mostly misunderstood and misappropriated. It is what Ronald Rolheiser calls three “phases” or “levels” of Christian Discipleship:

  1. Essential Discipleship
  2. Mature Discipleship
  3. Radical Discipleship

I mentioned Rolheiser’s book in my last post on the four pillars of Christian Discipleship (check it out for context). I don’t want to rehash what was already said. Rather, build on a couple ideas to further the discipleship conversation. 

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What are these three phases/levels of Christian Discipleship?

Essential Discipleship- the struggle to get our lives together

When a child is born they are full of life, desires, joy, and do not think deeply about home, identity, salvation, marriage, career, adult responsibilities, and other existential questions.

But, over time, these realities and questions begin to bubble to the surface as they move through puberty and adulthood. Boys and girls begin to struggle with hormones, sexual identity, career, relationships,  moodiness, family origin, and questions of the future. 

In this phase they are trying to get their lives together. Find who they are. These post-puberty kid’s are full of loves, wants, and desires. The discipleship goal is to form, shape, and help aim these desires toward Christ and his Kingdom.  

When we walk with others in Christian discipleship this phase/level must be acknowledged and considered. A person who struggles with who they are, what they are meant to do, who they are going to marry (or not), and vocation, will struggle to move toward phase two. 

Every disciple will walk through this phase. It is usually from the teenage years into their thirties. People are not cookie-cutters and we must not treat them as such. We need to identify the places in which they are “trying to get their lives together.” 

Mature Discipleship- the struggle to give our lives away 


Let me be clear. All of these phases/levels are a “struggle.” Even moving into phase two does not mean you never struggle with phase one. But, once we are secure in our identity in Christ, we are figuring out rhythms of marriage, parenting, mortgages, and career. It is time to give our lives away.

Jesus models servanthood as a way of life for the disciple (Phil. 2:5-11). We are not meant to stay in the puberty stage and gaze at our navels until we die. It is essential in the discipleship journey to discover how we can use our time, talents, gifts, experiences, and abilities to serve family, friends, neighbor, and world. 

As we walk with other disciples we continually spur them on to “good works” and “good deeds” for the sake of the world. This level usually takes root in thirties and forties. 

*Note: this does not mean we are not giving our lives away in the other phases. It just means we have moved from the struggle “of getting our lives together” to considering others in more life giving ways.

Radical Discipleship- the struggle to give our deaths away

Jesus gave us his life and death. As he gives us life in him we are to give our lives away in death. This is about legacy. How can we glorify God in our death? What Paul says in Philippians 3:

“8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead” Philippians 3:8-11.

In this phase (the later half of life), we want to leave a legacy that makes Jesus look great. Even in death. The world might see us suffer and die well. That Jesus can be seen as the highest good and treasure of our lives. We want to pass on a legacy of faith to the next generation in our dying. 

This is not meant to be morbid. But, as we get closer to our true home, our lives should reflect what makes us who we are. Was it fame, possessions, career, and money that defined us? No. It is a pursuit and knowledge of our Creator and Redeemer Jesus Christ that was the anthem of our lives. 

Not everyone comes into the discipleship stream at the same time. Regardless of how many years God gives us on earth. We are to gradually grow in Him. Showing evidence of the Spirit’s work as we struggle to get our lives together, give it away, and die well. 

All for the glory of God!

What phase/level do you find yourself? How do you need help?

*The last two posts were inspired by Sacred Fire by Ronald Rolheiser. Check out pages 1-21 "Discipleship and the Stages of Life."

4 Pillars of Christian Discipleship

If you were to narrow down the essence of following Christ what would it be? How would you define the core tenets and practices of a Christian disciple?

Ronald Rolheiser in “Sacred Fire: A Vision for a Deeper Human and Christian Maturity” boils Christian discipleship into four primary pillars:

  1. Private Prayer and Private Integrity
  2. Church Involvement 
  3. Acts of Charity/Justice 
  4. Forgiveness and Mellowness of Heart 

These pillars may appear to be simplistic and lacking. But, for the sake of argument Rolheiser summarizes what Jesus taught and embodied for his future followers to embrace. We can’t talk about discipleship without including these pillars: 

Private Prayer

Is relationship with God the Father, made possible through faith in the Son, and empowered by the Spirit. Private prayer suggests that an actual living relationship with the living God is active for the disciple. Absence of prayer is an absence of relationship.

Private Integrity 

But, Rolhesier suggests that prayer is not only communicating our desires to God, worship, and request. It involves integrity of heart. A desire to walk in accordance with God’s ways, commands, and teaching. He calls this integrity a desire to be “open and honest” before God in all our ways. 

Jesus connects loving God with obedience:

“Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” John 14:21

Church Involvement 

This is not a popular one. We live in a day where Christian spirituality is done in isolation separated from other Christians in a local church community. The problem lies in obedience.
A Christian is not meant to walk with God in private.

The greatest command to “love God” and “love neighbor” is not possible apart from a worshipping church community. How can we use our spiritual gifts, fellowship, sit under biblical teaching, make disciples, and do the “one another’s” in isolation from other Christians? 

It can’t be done.

The Christian life is not an individual sport. It is a team sport with teammates traveling the same discipleship path of being “conformed into the image of Christ.” An individual Christian disconnected from a local church is an oxymoron in the Bible. 

Rolheiser says: 

“The search for the Christian God is not just a private quest, it is a communal endeavor…”

Acts of Charity/Justice

Is another forgotten aspect of Christian discipleship. To not love the poor, widow, and orphan is not biblical Christianity. Jesus said as you love the poor you are loving me (Matt. 25). 

Rolheiser suggests that charity is meeting an immediate issue to alleviate poverty. But, justice, is engaging the systemic and larger issues to why people find themselves in poverty. Both charity and larger justice issues must be addressed by disciples and the church. Charity and Justice are concerns for all Christians. 

Forgiveness and Mellowness of Heart

Paul said in Ephesians 4:32: 

”Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Jesus taught us to pray, “and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Matt. 6:12). Forgiveness of others is the marker of a forgiven heart. 

Mellowness of heart is a heart of gratitude. It is a heart that is gracious and easily at peace with God and others. A mellow heart is not a heart of revenge, but a heart of grace, and forgiveness.The heart mellows as the gospel gets deeper in the soul. 

As the disciple of Jesus matures these four pillars become more evident. Rolheiser is right in his assertions. We would be remiss to lose any of these aspects of Christian discipleship. To lose one is to lose what it means to trust and follow Jesus.

May God instill these pillars into our lives and churches. 

Agree with these pillars? Why or why not? What would you add and/or take away?

Episode 020 - Race Relations and the Gospel

In this episode, Ryan and Dan discuss race relations and the gospel. To help in the conversation they interview Jovan Mackenzy and Vocab Malone. These men of God give a unique perspective on how to think through the issues of race, racism, black history, loving our neighbor, and the implications of the gospel.

Jovan is reaching the world with gospel-saturated and Christ exalting rap music. Vocab is serving Christ through apologetics, music, and formerly pastored a local church for ten years. You can find Jovan at www.repdakingmag.com. You can find Vocab Malone at www.urbantheologianradio.com. 

Celebrate our 20th episode by leaving a review on iTunes! Thanks in advance...

A Plea for the Next Generation of Disciples of Jesus

I am in the process of finishing up a book on discipleship for my church. We hope to use the content in the life of the congregation, for spurring on, and encouraging, daily discipleship with Jesus. 

The book is being edited as we speak. I wanted to share the last chapter (Epilogue) as a prayer and plea for the next generation of disciples. It is a very personal plea and hope for the book. Enjoy!

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Episode 019 - Mike Duran on Christian Horror

In episode #19, I interview Mike Duran, a Christian horror writer. These may sound like contradictory terms, but, Mike does not think so. He wrote a book on the compatibility of a Christian worldview and the horror, and speculative fiction genre. 

Mike has an amazing journey of faith which led him to become a pastor, and now a novelist. You will love this interview if you read fiction, and even if you don't. 

In this episode, we explore why Christian fiction is sterile and generally awful? Why Mike writes in the horror genre and is a Christian? Why Christians should not be scared of the spiritual and supernatural? Mike gives good wisdom and counsel on how to deal with horrific elements as Christians. 

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Life as Paradox

1. a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.
2. a self-contradictory and false proposition.
3. any person, thing, or situation exhibiting an apparently contradictory nature.
4. an opinion or statement contrary to commonly accepted opinion. -Dictionary.com

Life is a paradox. There is tension to grapple with if we are to live another day. As the definition states above, there are days when life seems, “self-contradictory” and “absurd.” It doesn’t make sense in the midst of great joy and stomach-turning sorrow. 

But, are these paradoxes “exhibiting an apparently contradictory nature”? That is the question. Are they contradictory or only appear to be?

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Episode 018 - Greg Dutcher on Killing Calvinism

In this episode, Ryan interviews pastor and author of Killing Calvinism, Greg Dutcher. We live in a day where the church is awakening to the doctrines of grace. A resurgence of Calvinistic/Reformed theology is on the rise in many corners of the world. 

But, with the rise of Calvinism, comes a certain posture. Not always a posture of grace and more often one of argumentation, arrogance, and self-righteousness. Greg discusses the genesis of his book, and the need for humility in the church regardless of theological persuasion. 

Is it possible to love God's sovereignty more than God himself? Is a disciple of Jesus only to be concerned with theological correctness? What about loving neighbors, engaging the injustices of the world, and loving God more than Calvinism? 

These questions and many more are explored in this robust interview. We might even talk about the gospel-themes in Shawshank Redemption. Check out Greg's podcast at www.11podcast.com. And, leave a review on iTunes and get a free copy of Greg's book.  

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